April 07, 2008

Tibet: The Bloody Torch Heads for San Francisco


The people of London and Paris were fantastic. Now, lets see what happens in San Francisco. Expect great things.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

how useless is snuffing out the olympic torch? is that going to help human rights in tibet? no, it just shows disrespect towards the games and those who compete. if you want to do something for the people of tibet, try something with a little more substance.

The Phantom said...

I have no respect for the Olympic Games. It has been steeped in bad politics since the Hitler Olympics in 1936, and now you have professionals openly playing against the few amateurs that are left...there is nothing left for anyone to respect.

Anonymous said...

these athletes have worked pretty hard just for the chance to compete. the olympics themselves aren't (and shouldn't) be steeped in politics. it's the pathetic politicians (et al., as is evident by the random protesters) who choose to make something apolitical, political. to what end? if they really care about the cause, surely there are far more effective ways of addressing it.

The Phantom said...

I'm not proposing that the games be stopped. I want them to take place, in an atmosphere of protests inside China itself.

Some of the best protests could come from the athletes themselves.

Mark said...

I'm interested to know what other far more effective ways could be used to address the problem.

Any ideas?

Anonymous said...

i don't know. boycott chinese products? supporting global trade embargos? call your legislator. figure it out. but the efficacy of snuffing the torch? zero.

Mark said...

I agree those are all good ways, but in this case I think snuffing out the torch is a good choice. Saving face is such an integral part of the Chinese culture. With the torch run not going well at all, China is losing face. Hopefully China will be forced to save face by addressing the issues with Tibet and human rights.

Tim said...

Anyone who thinks the so-called sanctity of a sporting event comes before human rights has terrible priorities. Great post, phantom.

Anonymous said...

no one said human rights come second to a sporting event. i am pointing out that the "protester" actions do nothing for the human rights of the people of tibet. just a nice opportunity for people to pat themselves on the back pretending they've actually done something.

Anonymous said...

oh hell its my party i'll get the ju ju beats, whats the next thing they're going to protest, zobra?!!!!!!!!!!

Lu said...

you think you are fair? you think you know all the truth?

ok, let me ask you:
1. did you ever travel to Tibet before and talk with the local kindness tibetan residents?
2. Did you chat with your friend how the local tibetan people thinking of their current life? or you just only heard story from those exiles?
3. Did you only care about news from CNN news but not any China media's news?
4. Did you have a search of the tibet history in the books before you think the protests is a right thing?

If you only heard voice from one side, sorry, i think you are brainless and dont even want to waste time for arguing with you.

it is definitly not cool for any irresponsible comments for the issue. Do you know, you maybe actually a puppet of the western media like CNN. It is no different for a deaf with a ppl who only listens from one voice.

Judge by yourself, do some research, stop irresponsibly bullshit chatting

Lu said...

A brief introduction of the history of Tibet,
during the China Tang Dynasty, Yuan Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty and till now

Tang Dynasty: AC618~907, hero leader SongZanGanbu unioned all the tribes across the tibet highland and built up a complete Tibet authority government- TuPan Dynasty. China Tang Dynasty wanted to build commercial relationship with TuPan Dynasty and wanted to avoid possible war with Tupan, so the king married one of his daughter to SongZanGanbu and built up a good relationship with Tupan dynasty for more than 200 years. Han civilization was also introduced into Tibet at the time.

Yuan Dynasty: Mongolian invaded the whold china and build Yuan dynasty in China. Actually the king of this emperor is the king of Mongolian. Tibet government accepted the authority of Mongolian and merged into China at the time. King of Yuan Dynasty assigned the king of Tibet as the highest ranking official of Tibet.

Ming Dynasty: Yuan Dynasty cracked down and Ming Dynasty rose up at AC1368. Ming Dynasty assigned more tibet local leader of different districts to be Ming government officials.

Qing Dynasty: AC 1644 Qing Dynasty replaced Ming Dynasty as the government of China. Qing put effort to relate Tibet more close with the central government, including setting laws for military, defence, commercial, Tax, currency of Tibet district. All these laws were kept using in the later more than 100 years.

Mingguo Dynasty: The last dynasty before the current china government. China was in the weakest status in her whole history. Civil war, being invaded by Britian, France, German, Japan... many years of wars weakened the control of the central government but officially Tibet is still one part of China government.

People's republic of China: established in 1949. In 1951,PRC government negotiated with the Tibet government which was established during the MingGuo Dynasty. An agreement was signed by PRC and Tibet that confirm Tibet is part of china. PRC goverment was responsible for handling issue of diplomacy and military defence. Tibet goverment still had high freedom in commercial and religion issues in Tibet.
1959, rebellion happened in Tibet. Those people who wanted to keep the peasent slave policy refused to free their slaves as PRC government forced them to do. It is like the civil war of USA, the sourthern fought with northern for keeping their slave-owning system. Many officals of central government were killed brutally in Tibet. War started. PRC goverment sent troops and defeat the Dalai rebellion government and Dalai fle to India. The slavery owning system was crashed in Tibet.

1965.9, the Tibet Autonomous Region province was set by PRC government and Tibet is part of China.

The Phantom said...

Lu

I believe that you are in Shanghai and that your IP address is 218.242.145. I hope that you are satisfied with your internet service from China Network Information Center.

You are perhaps monitoring blogs and responding to them in your capacity as an employee of China Network Information Center?

Have you been to Tibet, and have you had free conversations with Tibetans?

Perhaps you can arrange for a journalistic visit to Tibet by interested bloggers so that we can see for ourselves? I would be willing to take that trip.

Mark said...

Lu,

Thank you for posting the brief history of Tibet. I have a few questions.

Are you a Chinese national?

What is the Mingguo Dynasty? Are you referring to the Republic of China and Sun Yat-sen? That's the only period I know before Mao and the communists took over.

Where did you get this brief history? A Chinese website? Yes, US news can and is very suspect, but so is any Chinese news group. The censorship in China is legendary. When I was in Tiananmen Square, our official tour guide never once mentioned the student uprising. It wasn't until we were in a bus on our way to the airport that he talked about the demonstrations. It was a huge risk for him to talk about it.

As for the serfs and slavery, it's unfortunate that we'll never really know what life was like in Tibet before 1951. Tibetan exiles claim that serfs and masters made up only a small part of the population. The Chinese government says that's not true. Who can we believe? The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

The uprisings, as I understand them, occurred after 1951 when the land in Tibet was taken from noblemen and monasteries and redistributed to the serfs. This was both good and bad, as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution had devastating effects on the population of China. The US and the CIA got involved, backing Tibet, but the uprising came to an end in 1959. The US continued to back Tibet until Nixon went to China.

The history of Tibet and China, as you well know, is long and complicated and far from black and white. But I wouldn't rely on the Chinese government's "official" history of Tibet.

Mark said...

I'm with you, Phantom.

Lu said...

hi, phantom

Although i didnot have chance to Tibet but i have been to Jiuzai of Sichuang province. I lived in a common Tibet family for accomadation.
I had dinner with them. The mummy was so sweet and kept talking with my girlfriend to ask her introducing why we met each other.
The baby daughter of the family was so cute and always chasing behind me to play like an angel.
The son and his friend is also the host of this family guesthouse, we talked a lot.
And of course, the daddy of the family, who really cooked delicious lamb steak for us which is the best of the world.
I felt i was in the family like in my own family with my own daddy and mummy.
we even sang together and all of them of born singer.

It is such a nice time. And i feel so sad the recent issues just want to build up the untrustworthy wall between.

Is it peace maker? is it wat everybody really want?

I have many friends who have visited Tibetan, all of them were impressed by the honest, generous and warmhearted characters. They all enjoyed a nice tourist and kept in touch with local tibetan very well.

I just hope all of us can hear some more voice than just from one source.

I am tripping in Shanghai. I am a common telecomm engineer and working in Singarpore right now. I have been to many many countries and i am not employed by any political force. I judge things by myself.

If the happening protest is just to make hostility between tibetan and Han race, it proves nothing related with this word: PEACE

The Phantom said...

lu

All voices should be heard, and you are welcome to post here.

Will come back later.

Lu said...

hi, mark

I am chinese as you guessed.

I can answer your questions:
1. maybe you donot know, all of the chinese thinks the culture revolution is a disaster to whole china, not only to han race but to the whole china. It is the biggest ever mistake in china history which causes many people even died in disease and starving. All chinese knows it is a totally mistake decision of chairman mao and all of us agrees he was definitly wrong in this issue. Actually all chinese are paying for his mistake, if there is no this event, i do not think china is like the current status.
2. It is not as keeping secret in china for Tianmen event as you said. We knows the truths, or at least part of it. Maybe there is some different opinion: we also do not agree with using troops to crack down but we also know not all the protester in that event were students and there were some of them killing polices and soliders. Actually most of us donot feel well for that event but i think the history of this event may also not like you received from VOA or other media. The govement official who incharge of this event is actually very unpopular because of this event.

I am not sure if you also know that media corp like CNN also acts as a not honorable role in the current issue by cropping uncomplete photoes and filtering those protest's violation event.

To be honest, actually i think most of you are being guided to express your real hostility to china even you may not agree you have this mood. As i may also want to hide my hostility to American for all those bloody things they have done.

I want to clear my own thought, abandon those emotional misjudgement and i love peace. Hate war.

By the way, i worked in many countries. So do not suspect i can not see any thing you may think i can not see in China's internet network.

The Phantom said...

lu

I do not think most protest is "anti Chinese".

I think that most Americans ( and Europeans ) like Chinese people very much.

The issue is the suppression of the Tibetan people since 1950 by the government. They do not have autonomy which they are supposed to have in "autonomous region".

All the top political and business leaders there are non-Tibetan. This has been the case for 58 years and is getting much worse.

JG said...

Lu,

you just only heard story from those exiles?


Why are there exiles? If Tiebt is such a great place for Tibetans why are they risking their lives trying to escape from Tibet? I await your answer on this.

4. Did you have a search of the tibet history in the books before you think the protests is a right thing?


Yes. Tibet was not part of China before 1950. It still isn't, China occupies Tibet.

China has deliberately planted Han Chinese in Tibet to dilute the indigenous culture. Tibetans are now a minority in Lhasa (their own capital), Chinese has replaced Tibetan as the offical language and independent research puts the number of Han Chinese in the "TAR" at between 5 million and 5.5 million, with 4.5 million Tibetans.

You defend cutural genocide, Lu. You are a propagandist.

Lu said...

hi, phantom

I do not know why you say the highest officials in Tibet are not tibetan, Please check the information i found. Actually all the tibet province government chariman are tibetan.

I only list 2003 and 2008, if you want, you can check by yourself for more
2003
Re Di, Tibetan, born in 1938.8. elected as the leader of Tibet coucil
Lie Que, Tibetan, born in 1944.10. Elected as the chairman of Tibetan province
Ni Ma Zha Dui, Tibentan, elected as the chairman of the highest court of tibetan
Guo jing long,Han,elected as the Secretary of CPC committee

2008

xiang ba ping cuo, Tibetan, elected as the chairman of tibet province government, born in 1947.5
Lie Qie, Tibetan, elected as chairman of tibetan council
Zhang qin li, Han, elected as the Secretary of CPC committee

To be honest, i must clarify in china the number of highest officals for a province is 2 but not only 1. You may notice that the secretary of CPC committee are always Han but not tibetan. But if you judge by this that the tibetan is not autonomous region, i think it is unjust and easy to cause misunderstanding. Especiall to those who does not have much knowledge of the china current status.

Another fact i want to tell you is the latest 5 year, the other china province contribute a lot of funding for supporting the development of Tibet, it is 94.7biliion RMS, it is 13.5billion USD.

I just want to tell you the truth that tibetan is being helping by the whole china instead of depressing.
And there is policy for allowing tibetan to go into famous college of china with much lower score than the other province student. The policy is even valid for tibetan even in the southeast province like Shanghai.

Lu said...

Hi JG

For your questions, i reply as below

1. Why are there exiles? If Tiebt is such a great...

If you knows one of them, can you ask them to post here for wat reason they escape? I want to know it as you want me to explain. You may think i have narrow thought or opinion. Then i tell you i am eager to listen.

2. China has deliberately planted Han Chinese in Tibet to dilute the indigenous culture. Tibetans are now a minority in Lhasa (their own capital), Chinese has replaced Tibetan as the offical language and independent research puts the number of Han Chinese in the "TAR" at between 5 million and 5.5 million, with 4.5 million Tibetans.

reply: Actually there are not only tibetan and han race in tibet, there are more than 40 different races in Tibet. And Tibetan is definitly the majority, more than 80%. The number you said i think it is not refer to permanent residents in Tibet, because the tourist development in Tibet, many ppl in the other provinces go to tibet for looking for a better job and business oppotunity. You may be surprised that in shanghai, actually less than 40% is Shanghai permanent residents and normally you will hear Mandarin but not shanghai dialect because most of the ppl do not understand shanghai local dialect.
The other thing i want to tell you is, you know there is "one-kid" policy in china? but for tibetan, there is no limit, they can breed more than 1 kid.


3.You defend cutural genocide, Lu. You are a propagandist.

Re: actually when i see you writing this at the end of your comments, i feel a little angry and almost gave up replying your questions. I am a normal telecom engineer, having ambitious to open a company of myself in next year before my 33 birthday, i am as common as most of chinese. How to reply this kind of blaming? it seems to me very rude and impolite. If you think i should die now, should i make suicide? So it is not surprising that the bastart attacked the torch holder girl and hit her face in Paris who is a handicapped and sitting in wheelchair. It is your shame, it is my pride she was brave and try her best to protect the torch.

JG said...

Lu,

Thanks for your reply. It's not my intention to disrespect you but I say things as I see them and will continue to do so.

Being a telecoms engineer doesn't mean one cannot also be a propagandist.

1. Tibetan exiles

If you knows one of them, can you ask them to post here for wat reason they escape?

No, I can't. And this is not an answer to my question. There are a huge number of Tibetan exiles in India, Bhutan, the US, and all over the world. They risked their very lives to escape. Why would they do this if life is good for them in Tibet. I'll give you hint, THEY WOULDN'T.

2. Populations transfer

Actually there are not only tibetan and han race in tibet, there are more than 40 different races in Tibet

I didn't say there were only Tibetan and Han.

And Tibetan is definitly the majority, more than 80%

Could you provide me with a source for that figure please.

According to the Cardozo Journal of International and Comparative Law (a scholarly, peer-reviewed, academic journal) the CPC's policy of population transfer has made Tibetans a minority in Tibet. You can read the article here.

Tourism has nothing to do with it whatever. It is a deliberate policy of population transfer.

-------

it seems to me very rude and impolite

Well as I said that was not my intention but if it came across that way I apologise.

If you think i should die now, should i make suicide?

Now that is just a silly comment.

How to reply this kind of blaming?

I'm not blaming you for the actions of the Chinese tyrants. You did not elect them, nor can you vote them out! However, you are defending their policies in Tibet, hense my comment about defending cultural genoicde, which I stand by.

Mark said...

The New York Times has a great article about Tibet and the population transfer. You can read it here.

And Lu, you're getting through the great fire wall. Good for you. I have friends in Shanghai who can only occasionally see my blog. And when I was in Beijing and Changsha I couldn't see my blog. I could finally see it when I was in Guangzhou, probably because we were so close to Hong Kong.

Lu said...

jg
can i ask if you are a propagandist? Actually i feel very uncomfortable for being labled by others.
I am sure you donot want to be labled by me. You have your opinion, i have mine. we can discuss. but stop saying "you are blablabla" this kind of nonsense ok?

I judge the whole issue by myself, and i speak out my own opinion. Is this offending you? i do think myself as a patriot if you do like to lable me.

But i still think, you and most of the ppl who side the tibetan protest still have a open mind and wish to receive more information for the judgement. Then i just supply to you.

The information below is based on the population investigation result of year 2000. It is a official investigation for the whole china including tibet province. a notification to be said first, the population investigation is based on permanent residents of one place but not including tourists and worker from other provinces who are still permanent residents of another province.
Tibet:
Total population: 2.6163 million

population of Lasha: 0.4745 million

races distribution:
Zang(Tibetan):2.4111 million, 92.2%
Han: 0.1553 million, 5.9%
Other races:49.9 k, 1.9%

The comparement with the population investigation result of 1990:
Zang: increasing 0.3144 million, 15% increment
Han: increasing 74.5k, 92.1% increment
Other races: 31.4k, 169.7% increment

Tibet is part of china, and tibetan is the majority of the permanent residents of the province.

If you agree all the races are the same and have the same right, why do not you complain there are so many other province's ppl going to Beijing or Shanghai and invading the local BJ or SH ppl's human right? Is it because only tibetan and han are different races? do not you think you are conflicting yourself?


There is one kid policy in china, only one kid is allowed for each couple. But for Tibetan, they can breed more than one kid. They are free of this limitation.

One evidence for supporting cutural genocide is that Tibet language is disappearing. Let me tell you the truth, Tibet language is also being teaching in Tiben schools and all the offical laws and documents in Tibet has two language version: Chinese and Tibet language.

I have no right to blame you or others side the tibetan exiles. But please tell me if you really did your own independent research on this topic which should refer to document from different sources.

Do you really think clearly of the "ideal" you are trusting to? It is so ridiculous that you say you are fighting for human rights for tibetan but the actual result is violance and race confliction.

I and many other have enjoyed a very nice experience when we traelled and enjoyed happyness with local tibetan people.

Do you know wat is the current status in Tibet? Many stores of Han people dare not open their store in the daytime and longlong time friends dare not to speak to each other only because they belongs to different races.

do you agree it is a tragedy? YOU ARE SCREWING UP ALL THESE HAPPYNESS AND PLANT ISOLATION AND UNTRUSTWORTHY IN THIS LAND WHICH YOU SAID YOU WISH TO FIGHT FOR ITS GOODNESS. Maybe you should at least stop a while and think before any other actions?

Lu said...

Finally,
I have expressed all my opinion fully, and i hope you actually enjoyed the discussion and my purpose to tell you some other voice has been reached.

I will not continue posting for this topic.

Great thanks to phnatom, mark and jg. As i thank you for sharing with me your opinion and evidence, i hope at the same time I also transfer to you of my opinion and evidence.

Have a nice day.

JG said...

Lu,

If you aren't coming back then I won't waste my time debunking all the twaddle you just posted. But in case you pop back in for a peep I'll pick up on a couple of points.

For one so easily offended you can be quite rude yourself, by the way.

races distribution:
Zang(Tibetan):2.4111 million, 92.2%
Han: 0.1553 million, 5.9%
Other races:49.9 k, 1.9%

The comparement with the population investigation result of 1990:
Zang: increasing 0.3144 million, 15% increment
Han: increasing 74.5k, 92.1% increment
Other races: 31.4k, 169.7% increment


Please provide me with a source for these figures and one for the figure of 80% (ethnic Tibetans in Tibet) that you cited previously.

Anybody can quote a string of figures. You have to tell us where they come from. Your post "should refer to document from different sources" as you put it. So practice what you preach mate, let's see where you are getting your "facts" from.

can i ask if you are a propagandist?

Sure you can. The answer is I'm not.

I judge the whole issue by myself, and i speak out my own opinion.

Of course you do, and in China all the necessary information is freely available. No?

Tibet is part of china, and tibetan is the majority of the permanent residents of the province.


Both claims are empirically not true. I have referred you to an academic source which disproves your second claim. Your first claim is believed by nobody on earth apart from some Chinese. Before 1950 when China invaded Tibet, Tibet was an independent country. If it was part of China, why did it have to be "liberated"?

mahons said...

Phantom: Nice post and nice id of the Minister of Propoganda.

Anonymous said...

During the opium war, when the opium smuggled from the Britain undermined our body and morality, turning us into ‘the Sick men of East Asia’, you called us yellow disaster;

When your propaganda portrayed us as “the next super power “, you said that we are a threat to all of you.

When we closed our door, you broke it through with your drugs.

When we embrace the free trade, you condemned us for “stealing’ your jobs.

When our territory was split into pieces, your armies marched in to share a spoon of soup,

When we tried to put together all the fragments back, you said we are impeding a free Tibet.

When we tried to pratice communism, you hated us because we are “communists”

When we tried to learn from Capitamlism, you hated us because we want to be capitalists.

When we possess 1.3 billion people, you said that we were destroying the earth.

When we tried to control the population, you said that we are violating human rights.

When we were struck by poverty, you thought we were dogs.

?
If we offer you with loans, then you will say we put your countries in debt.

When we establish our own industry, you said we are the cause to the pollution.

When we sell our products, you accused us of resulting in the global warming;

?
When we buy petroleum, you called that exploitation

But when you started a war because of oil, you called that liberation,

When we get lost in the chaos and confusion, you said we should rule the countory by law
?
When we tried to safegard the law and strike down the violence, you said we were violating human rights.

When we keep silence, you said we should be entitled to free speech.

When we utter our own voices, you said we were brainswashed or behaved too defensive

Why do you have such a bottomless hatred for us ? We asked.

No . We don’t hate you. You answered.

We don’t hate you either. But, do you really understand us ?

?CNN?BBC……
Of couse we do. You repied, You have AFP, CNN, BBC…..

What on earth do you want from us ?

Think clear before you make an answer …

Because all you have is limited chances

Enough. It’s hypocritical to say that we have the same world.

What we called for is one world, one deam and peace for all.

This blue planet should be big enough to hold us all.

Mark said...

Anon 12:46,

Yes, the United States historically not treated China well. From the Foreign Miner's Tax law through the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882.

But don't try for a clean sweep of us. Like the U.S., China is both good and bad.

"When we tried to control the population, you said that we are violating human rights."

Forced abortions, torture, and 50 million missing girls since 1979 is a violation of human rights. By 2010 it will be 80 million missing girls.

The differences between the US and China are complicated.

Yes, there is enough room on this earth for everyone. But being hypocritical and making blanket statements, unfortunately, goes both ways.

Let's try and stop it now.